Este debate começou com este artigo:
Recalling Nana’s Face: Does Your Brain Store Memories?
por Michael Egnor December 8, 2014 2:12 PM (Egnor `e um neuro-cirurgiao e acho que criacionista) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/12/recalling_nanas091821.html Introducao: A singular consequence of the materialist-mechanical metaphysics that permeates our culture and our sciences is that we commonly hold basic beliefs that are abject nonsense. One such belief is the almost ubiquitous one — among ordinary folks as well as neuroscientists and surprisingly many philosophers — that the brain “stores” memories. The fact is that the brain doesn’t store memories, and can’t store memories….there is simply no way memory or information of any kind can be stored in a meat-organ like a brain. … But memories are psychological things. They have neither mass nor volume nor location, and the assertion that they can actually be stored in anything is unintelligible.
Este artigo do Egnor provocou uma rapida contra-resposta de PZ Myers:
Ready to lose a few brain cells? You won’t need them, apparently
PZ Myers is a biologist and associate professor at the University of Minnesota, Morris. Dono do famoso Pharyngula http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2014/12/15/ready-to-lose-a-few-brain-cells-you-wont-need-them-apparently/ Introducao: Michael Egnor, neurosurgeon, has made a bizarre post in which he reveals that he knows nothing about how the brains he cuts up work. Egnor claims that it is impossible for the brain to store memories. Yes, he knows that neural damage can cause loss of memory, that certain delicate areas of the brain, if harmed, can destroy the ability to make new memories, and he waves those awkward facts away to announce that there is simply no way memory or information of any kind can be stored in a meat-organ like a brain. He doesn’t say where memories are kept, then, nor does he account for any of the physiological correlates of memory, nor does he seem to give a damn about any of the neuroscience experiments that have teased apart the underlying molecular mechanism. By pure reason alone, if we can call his argument a product of reason at all, he deduces that the brain could not possibly have any way of storing memories. E Egnor retrucou a Myers com o seguinte post:
Understanding Memories: Lovely Metaphors Belong in Songs, Not Science
Michael Egnor December 16, 2014 12:20 PM http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/12/understanding_m092071.html Introducao: ” Biologist P. Z. Myers doesn’t agree with my observation that the notion that the brain stores memories makes no sense. Myers writes: Mas ai veio de novo a resposta de Myers:
Egnor babbles some more
Introducao; ” Michael Egnor has replied to my dismissal of his claims that memories can’t be stored in the brain with a curiously titled post, Understanding Memories: Lovely Metaphors Belong in Songs, Not Science. I was a bit confused, at first…I don’t recall using any song lyrics or poetic metaphors in my post on the subject, but then as I read his post, a light dawned. He’s talking about himself.”… E antes de Egnor responder, outro ateista famoso entrou em cena ao lado de PZ Myers:
Published by Steven Novella http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/neurosurgeon-thinks-the-brain-doesnt-store-memories/ Introducao: ” A far more accurate an useful definition of memory would be stored information. ( Nota minha: Como palavras sao mapas e nao os territorios, as palavras memoria e informacao devem serem evitadas aqui. Existe um deposito onde sinais – sejam quimicos, eletricos, fisicos, ou algo mais – sao mapas que representam reais fenomenos naturais. e neste deposito os nossos pensamentos vao buscar itens para reproduzir mentalmente a realidade e tomar decisoes. Para nosso social entendimento e na falta de coisa melhor por enquanto, vamos chamar estes sinais de sinais cerebrais. Nao `e o objeto que entra no cerebro e fica ali estocado, mas sim que todo objeto irradia-se por entropia para o mundo externo ( talvez tendo seus fragmentos levados pela luz quando bate nele e retorna refletida), e os fragmentos desta radiacao `e que sao captados pelo cerebro. E ainda nao sei qual o certo: se sao estes fragmentos do objeto ou se estes fragmentos sao transformados em outros fragmentos que possam ser absorvidos pelo cerebro. Podemos que estes fragmentos de unidades irradiados pelos objetos e transformados em sinais captaveis pelos receptors do cerebro – sao ” informacao” ? Acho que sim pois para mim, informacao `e uma forca natural que da forma a materia ou ao menos altera a forma de um corpo ou objeto material e estes fragmentos/sinais geram ou alteram formas nas sinapses, atraves da fosforilizacao ou sinteses de proteinas. O vento e uma informacao fisica real que atinge um ambiente cheio de objetos e mexe estes objetos impondo uma nova organizacao ao ambiente. e impondo novas formas ao ambiente e aos objetos. Enfim, memoria `e informacao estocada.) – That would not serve Egnor’s purposes well, however. He uses the more vague “retained knowledge” hoping you won’t notice what memories actually are – information. By pointing out that memories are information the analogy to computers becomes obvious. (Discordo. Primeiro, o autor esta sendo desonesto, pois devia dizer: …a analogia entre memoria natural, informacao natural, e cerebro – a memoria artificial, informacao artificial e computador, se torna obvia. E muito diferente. Primeiro, os estados da matéria entre um e outro sao diferentes (computadores nao tem o estado liquido, portanto nao apresenta reacoes quimicas, nem tem o estado biologico de organizacao da materia, o que sempre expressa o principio vital. Segundo que o computador `e um objeto morto e o cerebro um objeto vivo. Terceiro que a memoria `e introduzida no cerebro pela Natureza enquanto no computador o `e pela mente de um alienigena ao computador. Quarto, o cerebro tem a possibilidade de ser milhoes de vezes mais complexo do que nossos computadores mais avancados atuais, pois enquanto o computador opera basado em duas variaveis (0 e 1) o cerebro opera com sete variaveis (as sete funcoes sistemicas universais, que apaecem, por exemplo, numa unidade de informacao do DNA/RNA, com os nomes de cinco bases nitrogenadas e dois acucares laterais. E etc.) A hard drive of a computer stores information also. ( Sim, mas apenas pelo metodo de acumulacao e elasticidade do espaco no hard drive, ao contrario do cerebro onde o seu “hard drive” e um sistema functional e memorias sao novas formas deste sistema padrao. No hard drive do computador as unidades de memoria sao dispostas linearmente, mas eu creio que no hard drive cerebral elas sao dispostas no estilo de superposicao quantica. A informacao penetra o cerebro e altera a configuracao fisica do produto do cerebro, que sao as sinapses, enquanto na maquina do computador nao vejo a informacao alterar nada, a nao ser ocupando espacos vazios no hard drive.) Computer information is stored physically, in the pits on a CD, or magnetic properties of a tape or disk, for example. That information can be used to construct an image, music, a word processor document, or a computer program. Can the brain store information? Of course it can. ( Talvez sim, talvez nao. Ainda nao existem provas reais nem para uma alternativa, nem para outra. Por exemplo, a viao de mundo da matrix/DNA esta sugerindo que o cerebro nao estoca informacao, o que estoca `e o produto sendo produzido pelo cerebro, que e a mente. E a mesma analogia com uma mulher gravida quando informacoes/alimentos, etc., entram e sao estocados no corpo do embriao. de maneira relativa as informacoes foram estocadas dentro do corpo da mulher, mas nao no corpo da mulher.) The average adult human brain has about 87 billion neurons. Those neurons make connections to other neurons through axons and dendrites. The number, pattern, and strength of those functional connections is information – about 100 trillion connections, with an estimated memory capacity of 2.5 petabytes (million gigabytes). ( Mas…. as conexoes oriundas das sinapses sao partes fisicas do cerebro? Como, se as sinapses desaparecem logo que surgem? Ele esta dizendo algo certo: nao sao os neuronios, nem os axons e as dendrites que expressam a memoria, mas sim as conexoes e ainda, apenas as conexoes funcionais. As quais sao lampejos eletricos que acendem e apagam como raios nas nuvens.) The brain’s structure and function seems to be for the very purpose of storing and processing information. ( Nao. A estrutura e funcao do cerebro tem a limitada tendencia de alcancar seu equilibrio termodinamico e sobreviver neste estado. A nao ser que o cerebro tenha sido ‘ criado” por alguma entidade fora do cerebro que impos estes propositos de estocar e processar informacoes, como o homem – uma entidade fora do computador – criou sua estrutura e funcao para estocar e processar informacao. Cerebro `e massa, materia, e materia nao tem nenhum proposito. muito menos propositos que em nada lhe seriam uteis). Morelli: ” Opa, esta poderia ser a grande oportunidade que estou procurando: me informar com alguem que entende a relacao entre software e hardware. Primeiro deixa-me trazer para ca as definicoes oficiais de memoria e informacao:
Wiki: Memoria:
In psychology, memory is the process in which information is encoded, stored, and retrieved. Encoding allows information from the outside world to reach the five senses in the forms of chemical and physical stimuli. In this first stage the information must be changed so that it may be put into the encoding process. Storage is the second memory stage or process. This entails that information is maintained over periods of time. Finally the third process is the retrieval of information that has been stored. Such information must be located and returned to the consciousness. Some retrieval attempts may be effortless due to the type of information, and other attempts to remember stored information may be more demanding for various reasons. From an information processing perspective there are three main stages in the formation and retrieval of memory:
- Encoding or registration: receiving, processing and combining of received information
- Storage: creation of a permanent record of the encoded information
- Retrieval, recall or recollection: calling back the stored information in response to some cue for use in a process or activity
- (cont. a ler)
Informacao:
Information is that which informs, i.e. that from which knowledge and data can be derived (as data represents values attributed to parameters, and knowledge signifies understanding of real things or abstract concepts). As it regards data, the information’s existence is not necessarily coupled to an observer (it exists beyond an event horizon, for example), while in the case of knowledge, information requires a cognitive observer. At its most fundamental, information is any propagation of cause and effect within a system. Information is conveyed either as the content of a message or through direct or indirect observation of some thing. That which is perceived can be construed as a message in its own right, and in that sense, information is always conveyed as the content of a message. Information can be encoded into various forms for transmission and interpretation. For example, information may be encoded into signs, and transmitted via signals. In Thermodynamics, information is any kind of event that affects the state of a dynamic system that can interpret the information. The concept that information is the message has different meanings in different contexts. Thus the concept of information becomes closely related to notions of constraint, communication, control, data, form,[disambiguation needed] instruction, knowledge, meaning, understanding, mental stimuli, pattern, perception, representation, and entropy. (cont. a ler). xxxxx
Meu Artigo:
O que e memoria no DNA? Cada par lateral de nucleotideos ( que sao os buiding blocks do DNA) representa um instante na Historia do DNA, pois todo os instantes vividos pelo DNA, seja em que corpo ou sistema ele estiver, sao registrados. Cada registro, cada instante, ‘e uma variacao do sistema universal. Cada building block e uma derivacao da formula da Matrix/DNA para sistemas naturais. Essa derivacao ocorre porque cada nova operacao do cerebro comeca repetindo o circuito da formula, mas como o cerebro e estas operacoes sao sistemas abertos, as novidades que surgem enquanto ocorre uma operacao muda a tragetoria do circuito e insere a novidade no circuito. Estas operacoes do cerebro representam as operacoes do sistema-formula, na forma de axons e dendrites e suas decorrentes sinapses. Por isso, cada nova copia da formula, cada nova operacao, apresenta uma derivacao no tamanho, intensidade, etc., das sinapses resultantes. Essa insercao da novidade `e o que chamamos de unidades de memoria. Entao estas unidades de memoria possuem substancia fisica, volume, tamanho, etc. Porque cada unidade de memoria ‘e um sistema natural distinto, especifico, com toda uma natomia determinada pelo processo de um ciclo vital, e oconjunto da memoria de um cerebro ‘e o conjunto destes sistemas. Como `e o DNA. Quando um novo bloco `e formado, todo o passado `e recapitulado e se houver registros uteis ou relacionados ao motivo que acionou a nova formacao, estes registros sao trazidos para fazerem parte do novo bloco. Entao como esse mecanismo passou para o cerebro e suas memorias? Os neuronios substituem os building blocks do DNA. Portanto cada novo instante, novo pensamento, ‘e registrado num neuronio, ou num vizinho grupo de neuronios. Ora, a historia de cada instante contem informacoes, repetidas ou ineditas para o cerebro, portanto, cada historia ou cada instante `e um pacote de informacoes. Dessa forma informacoes sao registradas na ” carne” do cerebro. Mas existe a possibilidade de que o cerebro seja composto por duas dimensoes- uma ‘carnal” e a outra, tendo como substancia a luz e seus fotons. Tavz seja esta segunda dimensao – na substancia de luz – que muitos estudiosos como o autor deste artigo, chamam de psicologia e que nao seria algo fisico. Entao talvez existam duas diferentes dimensoes para uma mesma memoria. – Me parece que memoria `e sempre apenas visual, imagem. Eu nunca me lembro das palavras ” I have a dream” sem antes trazer `a lembranca a imagem de Martin Luther – seja a vista no papel, no filme, ou num video – quando seus labios pronunciaram aquelas palavras. Esta certo que as palavras nao sao imagens, sao sons, mas eu sempre vejo a minha imagem na hora que ouvi o som. Porem esta ideia nao resiste quando pensamos em cheiros, aromas. Basta sentir um cheiro num ambiente que logo vem na lembranca uma substance que produz aquele cheiro, nunca vem ants o lugar onde antes o cheiro foi sentido. Vejamos esta importante descoberta cientifica, citada por PZ Mayers: Eric Kandel won a Nobel (with Carlsson and Greengard) in 2000 for figuring out how memories are stored in Aplysia.
Eric Kandel, Center for Neurobiology and Behavior, Columbia University, New York, is rewarded for his discoveries of how the efficiency of synapses can be modified, and which molecular mechanisms that take part. With the nervous system of a sea slug as experimental model he has demonstrated how changes of synaptic function are central for learning and memory. Protein phosphorylation in synapses plays an important role for the generation of a form of short term memory. For the development of a long term memory a change in protein synthesis is also required, which can lead to alterations in shape and function of the synapse.
Entao, fosforilizacao de proteinas em sinapses exerce importante influencia na geracao de uma forma de memoria de curto tempo. E para o desenvolvimento de memoria de longo tempo uma mudanca na sintese de proteinas `e tambem requerida, a qual pode levar a alteracoes na forma e funcao da sinapse… Isto `e justamente confirmacao da sugestao da formula da Matrix/DNA ! Por esta formula, proteinas sao a contraparte biologica que representa o circuito da formula. Se existem 20.000 tipos de proteinas `e porque o circuito esferico inteiro mais o ramo lateral do circuito `e dividido em 20.000 pedacos, trechos. Cada proteina tem as informacoes para um pequeno trecho do circuito sistemico. Como disse acima, toda operacao cerebral `e um reiniciar da formula. Se nao houvesse nada novo vindo do exterior, como uma imagem, um som, um cheiro, a operacao cerebral desenharia exatamente, por sinapses, a formula da Matrix/DNA. Cada operacao, cada pensamento, `e um processo complete de ciclo vital. Assim um pensamento nasce quando certos neuronios contendo certas informacoes `e fecundado por algum estimulo. Assim o nasciturno em F1 inicia um fluxo circuital indo para F2, crescendo, amadurecendo, degenerando e morrendo… deixando ou nao sua marca registrada, se foi importante ou inutil. Mas se durante este processo o pensamento continuar sendo bombardeado por estimulos externos – na fotma de imagens, sons, etc., – o fluxo circuital se deforma, comeca a fugir da formula matricial, e acaba desenhando um diferente quadro sinaptico final. Assim criou uma nova derivacao da formula original, um novo tipo de sistema, e assim vai ser registrado na versao totl da formula que `e o proprio sistema cerebral. Ora, em palavras dos cientistas, essa deformacao ou aleracoes no circuito `e “o desenvolvimento de memoria de longo tempo uma mudanca na sintese de proteinas `e tambem requerida, a qual pode levar a alteracoes na forma e funcao da sinapse…” , e para memorias curtas eles dizem: ” ocorrem fosforilizacao de proteinas numa sinapse” . Assim, antes de ler este trecho do Premio Nobel Erik Candel, eu previ exatamente qual seria oresultado final da sua experiencia, apenas tentando ler os mapas da Matrix/DNA… Deixa-me tentar escrever para explicar a imagem que tenho na mente agora: Os atomos sao invadidos, habitados por fotons, que sao particulas de luz. Quando um fator externo se projeta para dentro do cerebro, seja na forma de imagem, som de palavras, etc., esta projecao `e emissao de fotons dos atomos que compoem o fato. Estes fotons acionam neuronios a produzirem sinapses eletromagneticas, que `e uma representacao de ondas de luz. As sinapses desenham uma onda de luz completa, a qual `e a primeira e original forma da formula da Matrix/DNA. Mas devido a insercao de elementos externos enquanto se constroi a formula por sinapses, e estes elementos sao incorporados na forma que o circuito tera, no final o conjunto de sinapses desta operacao sera uma nova forma de sistema, uma nova forma de seu template, que `e ondas de luz. O que fica registrado como memoria `e a soma de todas estas diferentes sinapses em forma de ondas de luz que se acumulam no cerebro, porem, nao como substancia biologica carnal, e sim como a substancia dos fotons, que `e luz… e estes fotons nao sao captados por nossos sensors nem pleos instrumnetos cientificos. O acumulo destas ondas sistemas luminosas `e o que vai sendo desenvolvido pelo que chamamos de ‘ auto-consciencia”, pois assim o rpoduto final da evolucao dentro do univiverso `e sintetizado pela subsancia da mesma luz que deu origm ao Universo… assim se complete um universal processo de reproducao genetica, reproducao daquilo ou daquele sistema consciente que existia ou ainda existe alem dste universe. Para mim, esta tudo facilmente explicado. Enfim, a memoria `e ou nao estocada no cerebro? Ela `e estocada no produto produzido pelo cerebro, o qual ainda `e um feto, um embriao de auto-consciencia. Isto `e semelhante a quando um embriao dentro da barriga de uma mulher gravida esta recebendo do exterior novos elementos, como alimentos, etc. O que vai para o feto, o que fica estocado no feto, estara estocado tambem no corpo da mae? De cera forma sim, pois o corpo da mae contem o feto. Mas… um dia o feto sai, o corpo da mae fica, e a memoria vai com o feto, Saindo do stoque do cerebro… Estes dois cientistas brigoes estao ambos meio certos e meio-errados… Ou seja, os 50% de erros de um sao exatamente os 505 de acertos do outro, e vice-versa… Raios! Por exemplo quando PZ Myers diz: ” Aplysia can learn to associate a touch with an unpleasant stimulus, and will remember that association when touched in the future, which is a psychological thing
. We know how that psychological thing
is stored in the brain of Aplysia, as changes in the strength of synapses. Egnor is therefore refuted on his first claim.” … A Matrix/DNA diz: ” Sim, Mayers esta certo. A criatura Aplysia vai ser tocada pelo desagradavel estimulo e imediatamente vai reacionar um registro de sistema-sinapse que tem em si no qual houve aquele mesmo estimulo, assim como sempre quando chega o RNA-m que tem o codigo para a proteina X no DNA vai acionar imediatamente os genes que produzem aquele contra-codigo. Mayers esta certo quando diz que esta sinapse-sistema que tem um particular e expecifica configuracao, como comprimento de onda, densidade de onda, etc., aparece nos nossos instrumentos de observacao como sinapses alongadas, etc. Mas Egnor esta certo quando diz que esta sinapse sistema `e uma coisa psicologica que nao esta estocada no cerebro, porque ela esta estocada no embriao que o cerebro, no papel de um ovo, contem dentro de si. Acontee que memorias sao fotons interconectados formando ondas de luz original a qual `e um salto mutante evolutivo em ralacao ao cerebro biologico assim como os sistemas biologicos foram um salto mutante evolutivo em realacao aos sistemas astronomicos e atomicos.” ( Porem, enquanto nao desenvolvermos nossos instrumentos cientificos e nao captar-mos a dimensao desta luz original, nao tenho como provar que essa nova forma de sistema luminifero existe, e entao… fico quieto reafirmando que tenho apenas uma teoria). Myers diz: ” This imaginary engram search story only makes sense if you assume dualism and that memory is co-dependent on finding a memory in a disorganized heap, and as Egnor points out, it doesn’t work. By his own reasoning, his model fails.” Matrix/DNA: Sim, as memorias nao estao espalhadas, desorganizadas, como rodinhas de luz esfericas misturadas, pois elas foram surgindo dentro de uma sequencia cronologica, ` medida que a vida do individuo ia avancando no tempo. Assim como os dados para as proteinas naos estas espalhadas, desorganizadas no DNA. Mas existe um certo dualism, uma certa separacao entre o eu consciente e a massa cerebral, assim como existe uma certa separacao entre o corpo da mae gravida e o corpo do embriao que ela carrega dentro de si. Myers diz: ” I suspect that these silly ideas of his are a product of a fear of mortality. If the mind is a product of the brain, when the brain dies, the mind dies, too; there is no afterlife… There must be a Magical Spiritual Essence that is working through the meat in your head to produce you…” Matrix/DNA: Sim, o erro de criacionistas ( penso que Egnor ‘e cristao criacionista pois adota as ideias de Sao Tomas) `e – apesar de ter uma intuicao certeira de que existe vida do Eu apos a morte do cerebro ( Segundo sugere a Matrix/DNA Theory) – precisar apelar para produtos da imaginacao nunca confirmados como fatos, como a possivel existencia de espirituais magicos. O cerebro`e um ovo, o Eu `e mente-embriao sendo gestada dentro do ovo. Todo ovo ” morre” desaparece, se quebra, ao dar vida livre ao ser que contem. Nao precisa-se de magicas, nem de entidades supernaturais. E o erro de materialistas/ateus como penso ser Myers ‘e manterem-se cegos para o fato que embrioes nao morrem quando ovos morrem, … talvez porque tambem se esquecem que quem produz os embrioes nao sao os ovos e sim o codigo genetico que foi inserido dentro do ovo. Meu Deus…! Este pessoal causa uma confusao totalmente desnecessaria… Um ponto afirmativo para minha teoria vem deste comentario no artigo do …. ”
f Nas palavras da Matrix/DNA, isto seria: os fragmentos irradiados pelos objetos ou pela luz refletida pelos objetos sao captados pelo cerebro e codificados usando fotons. Estes codigos vao para o mesmo lugar onde ficam registradas todas as sinapses ocorridas na vida o cerebro, todos os pensamentos, e este lugar compost por fotons, que sao as particulas da luz, tende a se firmar cada vz mais como um corpo de luz. Este corpo de luz `e o que o cerebro como placenta e ovo esta gerando e ao qual nos chamamos de ment ou auto-consciencia. Outro fator que m ajuda, neste comentario: … Our memories could not possibly be stored. Suppose I try to remember something. I don’t have to hold it in my mind, I can write it down in a notebook. So my memory is stored there. Later on I look in my notebook in order to retrieve my memory. But wait! How do I understand what I’ve written down? I have to be able to remember the meanings of the words I’ve written down. So I would need to make a 2nd lot of notes in order to remember the meaning of the words composing the first lot of notes. But this process just goes on without end. That is to say we get an infinite regress. So saying our memories are stored is explanatorily vacuous. Portanto, a estocagem de memoria no computador ` e acumulativa e linear, enquanto no cerebro `e superposicao quantica.
FIM DO MEU ARTIGO
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Notas do artigo:
… of memories can certainly be stored. Synapses can be altered in ways that correlate more or less with learning, and we can write “mumbles” on scraps of paper and stuff the scraps in our pockets. And no doubt that is the kind of thing Myers means by invoking storage of memories, sort of. No one doubts that the brain can store representations or at least things that seem like representations — proteins and dendritic arrays and electrochemical gradients and the like. – If Myers believes that there is only one level of explanation for memory, then he believes either: 1) psychological memory is the same thing as the spatial arrangement of axons and dendrites, etc. or 2) psychological memory is folk psychology that doesn’t really exist, and all that exists is spatial arrangement of axons and dendrites, etc.
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Pesquisa
1) Engramas : : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engram_(neuropsychology) – E are means by which memory traces are stored as biophysical or biochemical changes in the brain (and other neural tissue) in response to external stimuli. They are also sometimes thought of as a biological neural network or fragment of memory, sometimes using a hologram analogy to describe its action in light of results showing that memory appears not to be localized in the brain. The existence of engrams is posited by some scientific theories to explain the persistence of memory and how memories are stored in the brain. The existence of neurologically defined engrams is not significantly disputed, though their exact mechanism and location has been a focus of persistent research for many decades. ( Ver mais) – (Wiki = Engram) The consensus view in neuroscience is that the sorts of memory involved in complex tasks are likely to be distributed among a variety of neural systems, yet certain types of knowledge may be processed and contained in specific regions of the brain
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http://www.iep.utm.edu/identity/
Meu comentario. Postado em:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2014/12/15/ready-to-lose-a-few-brain-cells-you-wont-need-them-apparently/comment-page-1/#comment-893669
http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/neurosurgeon-thinks-the-brain-doesnt-store-memories/
Louis C. Morelli – on 24 Dec 2014 at 7:13 am – this comment is awaiting moderation.
O cérebro estoca, armazena, memórias? Sim e não. A resposta depende do relativo ponto de vista de cada observador. Para explicar isso vamos recorrer a uma analogia. O corpo de uma mulher gravida armazena as informações/memórias que entram direto no corpo do feto que ela carrega dentro de si? Sim, porque de qualquer maneira as informações estão dentro do corpo da mãe; não, pois quando o embrião nascer levará estas informações consigo. Se um macro-observador vendo o corpo da mãe de fora para dentro, dirá que sim; mas se um micro-observador situado dentro do feto e olhando de dentro para fora, dirá que não. Esta não é uma mera e acidental analogia, porque o que acontece com uma mulher gravida tem o mesmo significado existencial do que está acontecendo com o cérebro humano que está produzindo o que chamamos de “mente”, ou “auto-consciência”. Os dois casos são “ondas” da evolução cosmológica. É um processo universal ocorrendo a cada vez que uma nova forma de sistema natural emerges. Assim, neste novo salto evolucionário, quando a Natureza está produzindo esta nova espécie de sistema natural, o cérebro faz o papel de placenta/amnion, a caixa óssea craniana faz o de “ovo”, e o feto sendo gestado é a auto-consciência. Portanto, supomos que quando o “ovo” deixa de existir, libera ou nasce a auto-consciência que leva consigo todas as memórias do individuo.
Porque a entrada de nova informação/memória muda ou produz novas configurações de sinapses e fosforização? As quais são observadas ao nível das proteínas no cérebro? Proteínas são a contra-parte biológica do fluxo de informação que corre dentro de todo circuito sistêmico, como podemos ver nas fórmulas da Matrix/DNA Theory. Se existem cerca de 20.000 proteínas é porque o circuito sistêmico é dividido em 20.000 pedaços, cada proteína traduz um trecho do circuito. Assim, este novo sistema a que denominamos “mente”, composto por uma substancia ainda desconhecida ( plasma-fótons?) e emergindo desde o cérebro está sendo construído por proteínas no nível químico, o qual produz as sinapses no nível energético. Qualquer estimulo externo produz um novo pensamento,os quais são micro-sistemas que se desenvolvem obedecendo o processo do ciclo vital. Normalmente, qualquer pensamento nasce, cresce, amadurece, degenera e morre, porem antes é registrado como building block do feto mental. Normalmente, todos os pensamentos devem obedecerem a mesma configuração sináptica da fórmula da Matrix/DNA, mas os estímulos externos são absorvidos dentro do circuito,mudando ou produzindo nova variação. Estas variações no nível de fótons-plasma é o que denominamos “unidades de memória”. Mais informações e as fórmulas, podem serem vistas na “Teoria da Fórmula da Matrix/DNA Universal para Sistemas Naturais e Ciclos Vitais”.
Tradução Inglês:
Louis C. Morelli – on 24 Dec 2014 at 7:13 am – this comment is awaiting moderation.
Does the brain store memory? Yes and no, the answer depends on the observer’s relative point of view. To explain let’s use an analogy:
the body of a pregnant woman, stores information and memories that go directly into the body of the fetus she carries in? No, because this information will go with the embryo at birth; yes, because anyway, while the embryo is inside the mother’s body, this is a great deposit containing a smaller deposit. If a macro-observer looking at the mother’s body from the outside in, he would say “yes!”; if it is a micro-observer located within the fetus, looking from the inside out, will say “no!”. This is not merely an analogy, it is the waves of cosmological evolution. It is the universal process repeated every time that a new natural system emerges. So, in this new evolutionary jump, when Nature is producing a new natural system that we call “mind”, “consciousness”, etc., the brain represents the placenta/amnion, the skull is the egg, and the human mind or self-consciousness is still a fetus/embryo.
Why the input of information/memory changes and/or produces new configurations of synapses and phosphorylation? And it does so through proteins? Proteins are the biological counterpart of the flow of information running inside the systemic circuit, as we can see the formula at Matrix/DNA Theory. If there are 20.000 proteins, it means that the circuit is shared into 20.000 slices.
So, this new system composed by a still unknown substance ( plasma-photons?) emerging from the brain is built by proteins at chemical level, which produces synapses at energetic level. Any external stimulus produces a new thought, which are systems being built by the process of life’s cycle. Normally, any thought is born, grows, becomes mature, degenerates and dies, but it is registered as building block of the “mind”. Normally all thoughts must obeys the same configuration of the Matrix/DNA universal formula for natural systems, but the external stimulus is absorbed inside the circuit, changing and producing a new variation. This absorption, at “plasma-photon level” is what we call “memory”. More informations and formulas can be seen at “The Universal Matrix/DNAs’ formulas for Natural Systems and Life’s Cycles Theory”.
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– 08/15/2016
Rob Grigjanis
Let me try again (and catch up).
LykeX
@louismorelli
Maybe you’re used to people being impressed by you throwing around fancy words, but around here, we know better. I mean, just take a sentence like this:
It’s gibberish. It doesn’t mean anything. You’re just stringing together words that you clearly don’t understand, hoping we’ll be too intimidated to call you out on it. It’s utterly transparent, and really rather sad.
If you’re genuinely interested in this subject, I suggest you educate yourself from real science textbooks, rather than listening to whatever screwball websites that served you this pile of shit.
Minha resposta:
Lol… several posts criticizing my post, thanks to everybody for helping me testing my theory and bringing on useful informations.
To LikeX: “
It’s gibberish. It doesn’t mean anything. You’re just stringing together words that you clearly don’t understand, hoping we’ll be too intimidated to call you out on it. It’s utterly transparent, and really rather sad.”
Matrix/DNA answer: “LikeX, Nature does not care if you believe or not in its natural formulas, like VSI ( Variation, Selection, Inheritance), and it does not care if you does not like the results from its formulas, like VSI producing the transformations of amoebas into monkeys and monkeys into humans.Then the Matrix/DNA natural formula is suggesting that is occurring the emergence of a new shape of system produced by the brain. The brain was built by and upon that formula, like all others natural systems, so, we are supposing that this new system called “mind” is following the same systemic configuration – and there are lots of evidences favouring this hypothesis. . . We have discovered that below all natural systems and the first shape of Matrix’s formula was merely a natural wave of light,but, them, we discovered also that there are lots of secrets in this waves, included the code for life’s cycles, like you can see our graphic for the electric-magnetic spectrum of light. So, we are supposing that the bombardment of synapses is building a kind of hologram which substance is this natural light, like a mirror reflecting and storing each set of synapses of each thought.
Like Darwin suggested the existence of VSI, and scientifically we are testing and accumulating evidences for his formula, now I am suggesting the existence of the Matrix/DNA formula, waiting more data from science for testing it. Yours post have no one real proved natural fact against my post, and… nature does not care about our opinions.
LM
Beyond this point is unscientific and unevidenced bullshit. Memories are in the bioware of the brain. Evidence otherwise, not mentally wank about it. Unevidence speculation is dismissed.
Minha resposta:
To Nerd of Redhead:
Beyond this point is unscientific and unevidenced bullshit. Memories are in the bioware of the brain. Evidence otherwise, not mentally wank about it. Unevidence speculation is dismissed.
Matrix/DNA answer: I can’t understand why you are asking more evidence for my theory than to those saying yes and those saying no. While Neurology does not discover how neurons are related to thoughts, nobody have proofs of anything. We are debating theories here because its good when more brains with different approaches to the problem, thinks together. I am accumulating tons of evidences but searching facts that could debunk my theory also. . The unique way for you proving to me that memories are in the bioware of brains is opening a brain and showing to me the image of my died grandmother stored there… But, my theory is suggesting that yours theory is good and rational also…
And the liver? What about the liver? I think it’s the liver which produces the photo-plasmons that then get turned into plasma-photons by the spleen. Or possibly the pineal gland.
Minha resposta:
To Nick Gotts:
Are you joking? There is a universal formula for all natural systems, and we can see this formula as template of lots of parts of a human body. So, the human body is lots of systems and micro systems of systems… the brain ( with its spinal medulae) alone is a system, and opened system. The liver belongs to the “thorax” system and its systemic function is cleaning systems, like lysosomes does it at cell’s level and black holes does it at astronomical level. If there were livers in the brain, all memories would be immediately cleaned out…
Has anyone else looked at louismorelli’s website?
@ louismorelli 89
What does this mean functionally? What are you referring to as “information”?
Also pregnant mothers do indeed store environmental information in the unborn (through various hormones and other messengers) and that information is simultaneously stored for themselves. The information is different in that it shapes basic instinctual drives and carries no specifics like images or sounds, but it is still there.
Minha resposta:
To Brony: Didn’t you understand that this is a relativistic question? I will try something else: The brain stores informations from human body and external stimulus that affects the human body for all its own existence. But, when it is about informations from the external world that is stored “psychologically” and used for thoughts, it is another level of matter’s organization that stores it, related to thing that the brain is creating and nurturing. In another words: the brain is the hardware and this new brain’s production is the software. But, if you does not know my graphic for a electric-magnetic spectrum of light you will not understand why I am suggesting that this software is a new level of matter’s organization. The final results of all synapses is a cloud of light waves enclosed, encoded inside a bubble…
Yes, also the mother’s body stores some informations that arrives to the fetus, but, those related to the automatic nervous system.
On one level you have some accuracy. Metabolic processes, cells, tissues, organs and organisms are hierarchically stacked and integrated (at different levels) in patterns that give us information about what the past was like. But none of our ancestors were in any sense like fetuses or embryos in such a grand sense. That implies a goal for evolution that is simply anthropomorphism.
Minha resposta:
Bony, thanks for helping me to self-analysing the results of my theory. You need be patient because despite I am an American citizen, English is not my native language, so, I don’t know if I am grasping yours posts…
I am not talking that there is analogy in the sense you understood it. The analogy between embryogenesis of humans and the embryogenesis of “consciousness” is the analogy between the processes used at these events. Both events are developed by same process, same mechanisms. Please, take a minute and go to see the figure of a nude human brain with its tail, the spinal medulae. Are you seeing that this image is same image when a spermatozoon penetrates an ovule, still with its tail outside? It means that human consciousness is still a blastulae or a fetus, recently emerged by fecundation, a fetus of ( I suppose) a big universal consciousness. That’s is evident when you notice that both images are the same event.
Yes, all our ancestors, from atoms systems to galactic systems to monkeys, have their simplest shape of embryogenesis process, which process is under evolution also. But… you only can see this wonderful fact if you knows the formula that nature have used for creating all existent natural systems…
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Because molecular and cellular biology. We have some of the details.
Minha resposta:
Yes, it is merely molecular/cellular biology. But where molecular/cellular biology came from? Or are you suggesting that the very fact that “when a new information is absorbed by a system” is a process created by terrestrial molecules and biological cells?! No, my friend, I am seeing this process occurring at the whole Universe and since the Big Bang…
xxxx
Indisputably.
You will need to unpack that. Why are proteins not “information”? What is this “circuit” and “matrix” you speak of? When you use different language to describe what is in textbooks you need to explain yourself more than this.
Minha resposta:
Yes, Brony, I understand that talking short in this way it is difficult for you understand it. But there is no another way for writing it, I can’t explain a whole world view developed during 30 years of hard work here. Proteins are just that: informations… for building parts of biological systems. Maybe you will understand the phrase above, looking to the Matrix/DNA formula for natural systems, at my website. At this formula, a system has a spheric flow connecting its parts. This system is built by Nature when the life’s cycles dynamic process penetrates inertial mass or inanimate object. The penetration is made by waves of natural light, which has the code for life’s cycles process. Then, when this formula built the first biological complete system ( a biological cell) using terrestrial atoms and chemistry, this spheric circuit becomes the whole set of proteins. So, try to see proteins running inside the spherical circuit of that formula, building the parts. That’s why when our body needs to repair or rebuilding any cellular organelle or any flow of energy of any bodies’system or sub-systems, the body sends an RNA asking it to DNA, where the whole system is encoded.
xxxx
The system is not “new”, it was always there. Synapses are extensions of protein studded bags of phospholipids, what does “energetic level” have to do with it?
Minha resposta:
If it is not new, you need show to me where is the mind or consciousness at amoebas, lizards… at all ours ancestors. Wait, I will explain… The self-aware state is not new in relation to superior species of animals, which are natural systems. But atoms and galaxies and cells are natural systems also, and they are our ancestors also. In relation to these inferior systems, the set of thoughts produced by our brains ( and maybe by another superior animals) is a new shape, never existed before, here, at this time/space of the Universe where we are located as observers. But you are right, relativistically right. because it is not a new natural system, it is merely a new shape of a universal system that have been under evolution since the Big Bang. They are a unique system because you can see that all these systems have as template the same natural formula. Any natural system is composed by hardware and software. The software was sleeping at atoms, dreaming at galaxies, began waking up at plants and inferior animals and now is lifting up ( as a fetus yet) inside the human brains… and lots of other places in this Universe. So, the mind system is not new, it is came to light now, like any baby at birth, but it is older than the Universe…
I mean by energetic level the signals captured by MRI as final results of synapses. Maybe my fault…
xxxx
Thoughts are sub-parts of the stream of consciousness. They are assembled and lead to new thoughts as pieces are arranged with memory and/or perception differently. Thoughts are combinations of parts and “die” in the same sense as a particular configuration of a Rubiks Cube “dies” when you twist things around. Memories can be said to “die” if they are altered relative to when they were stored (and many many are).