Auto-Consciência: Importante Questão a Resolver

Eu penso que é  “quase” certo que nosso corpo carnal veio dos primatas.  Mas tenho duvidas quanto à auto-consciência humana, pois vejo-a com uma enormidade de novidades que o cérebro dos macacos não possuem. Principalmente ter consciência da existência do planeta, poder vê-lo mentalmente de fora, do sistema solar, das galaxias, os aglomerados de galaxias…  Ter uma enorme memória do passado e fazer cenas do passado estarem sendo repetidas mentalmente no presente.  Previsões do futuro.  Pode ser que isso seja mero produto da evolução vinda dos primatas, mas ainda não consigo digerir essa idéia. O salto evolutivo é desproporcional à todas as possiveis transformações nas fases suscessivas anteriores. Mesmo assim… talvez não.

Se não veio tôda, completa, dos primatas, ela por inteiro, ou alguma parte fundamental dela, teria vindo de que e de onde?! Vou bater nessa tecla atá o meu ultimo suspiro. A Matrix/DNA tem uma sugestão, quando ela sugere que o Universo é composto de hardware e software. O software em si seria tambem inconsciente desde o Big Bang até o primata.  Ele seria o comando de instruções aos genes no DNA, e teria evoluido para mente auto-consciente no primata. Em outras palavras, a auto-consciencia teria surgida fragmentafa em bits no Big Bang, teria se juntado no átomo,  dormido nas galaxias,  sonhado nas plantas, acordado nos animais, despertado no primata e levantado no Homem… porque neste Universo ocorre uma genética reprodução de um sistema que existia antes do Big Bang e era auto-conscienciente.  Assim a Matrix explica o que parece ser um enorme salto evolutivo. De fato existe muita diferença entre uma pessoa dormindo e outra acordada, mas êsse salto existe e podemos assisti-lo.

Êste tema voltou à minha lembrança agora quando li um comentário postado aqui:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHbYJfwFgOU&feature=autoshare

Bill Nye: Creationism Is Not Appropriate For Children

Comentário postado por:

Peter van der Meer

Peter van der Meer 51 minutes ago

“”Our brains have 100 billion neurons. Each one performs billions of ‘calculations’ per second ”

A neuron doesn’t calculate anything. It merely responds to neurotransmitters or electrical impulses. Some make them ‘fire’ faster, others slower. A single neuron is stupid as fuck.

·  in reply to Alan Clarke (Show the comment)
E segui-se uma longa discussão, a qual reproduzo aqui:

Minha resposta/pergunta foi:

TheMatrixDNA

Peter Meer: “A single neuron is stupid as fuck”. You have a point, which is food for my thoughts. All building blocks of a brain are stupid. But the whole is self-conscious. How could be that?! Ok, the whole is a system, sets of neurons are different parts, each one performing different function. The whole is an emergent new identity, since that the inter-relations among parts creates a set of new information.But it is not enough for jumping from stupid to self-conscious. What’s explanation?

werriboy55

werriboy55 21 minutes ago

What is self-consciousness? Please describe the state.

·  in reply to TheMatrixDNA (Show the comment)
TheMatrixDNA

TheMatrixDNA 1 second ago

Hummm… a quick search in Wiki: “Psychologists frequently distinguish between two kinds of self-consciousness, private and public. Private self-consciousness is a tendency to introspect and examine one’s inner self and feelings. Public self-consciousness is an awareness of the self as it is viewed by others. This kind of self-consciousness can result in self-monitoring and social anxiety.”But there is nothing, no definition of self-consciousness. Do you know something else?l Matrix/DNA knows…

·  in reply to werriboy55 (Show the comment)
TheMatrixDNA

TheMatrixDNA 1 second ago

This is an advance,but,still…

Consciousness is the quality or state of being aware of an external object or something within oneself. Despite the difficulty in definition, many philosophers believe that there is a broadly shared underlying intuition about what consciousness is. Phikosophers wrote: “Anything that we are aware of at a given moment forms part of our consciousness, making conscious experience at once the most familiar and most mysterious aspect of our lives.

·  in reply to TheMatrixDNA (Show the comment)
TheMatrixDNA

TheMatrixDNA 1 second ago

And stupid neurons are not aware of an external object, neither what happens at our skin. Why the whole becomes aware?

·  in reply to TheMatrixDNA (Show the comment)
TheMatrixDNA

TheMatrixDNA 1 second ago

What’s the human mind? The building blocks are stupid neurons.They are not aware of external objects. Neurons plus visual images of external objects projected inside the brain = being aware of the external object.But we can take all kind of blocks, putting them side by side with images, we don’t get a state of being aware of the object. So,must have something else. Somebody can help me here? Animals are aware, bactéria not. When awareness began?

·  in reply to TheMatrixDNA (Show the comment)
werriboy55

werriboy55 19 seconds ago

Gilbert Ryle thinks the whole attempt to separate consciousness from behavioural and linguistic understandings is flawed.

So you have a “fascinating but elusive phenomenon’ as Stuart Sutherland describes it and the only positive claim you can make is that chemical reactions cannot cause it.

You don’t know what it is, you just know it isn’t that.

·  in reply to TheMatrixDNA (Show the comment)
TheMatrixDNA

TheMatrixDNA 1 second ago

This is very depressive: we have something that the only thing we know about is that it isn’t…

Matrix/DNA is researching two ways 1) Synapses are electric vibrations which remember light waves and Matrix discovered that lightwaves are the code for life. 2) This Universe is composed by hardware and software which is coming under evolution since the Big Bang, sleeping at galaxies, being the instructions for genes and mind at human brain. If so, mind’s origins is ex-machine.What do you think?

·  in reply to werriboy55 (Show the comment)

werriboy55 34 minutes ago

And you have difficulty explaining how a state of “a tendency to introspect and examine one’s inner self and feelings” could derive from chemical reactions right?

·  in reply to TheMatrixDNA (Show the comment)

TheMatrixDNA 1 second ago

Yes. I think that chemical reactions are processes, how happens interactions among atoms and substances of atoms. Chemistry is merely an emergence produced by a prior state of the world composed by solid and gaseous states of matters when appears the liquid state.Another word, chemistry is an evolved form of physical forces. Again I can’t understand how evolved physical forces could becomes conscious.

·  in reply to werriboy55 (Show the comment)

werriboy55 7 minutes ago

But you don’t know what consciousness is. How can you argue what it isn’t or how it doesn’t arise? Why can’t “an evolved form of physical forces” produce consciousness?

·  in reply to TheMatrixDNA (Show the comment)

TheMatrixDNA 1 second ago

Well we don’t know which are the primary source of physical forces, also. The last understanding is that particles called gauge bosons are the fundamental means by which forces are emitted and absorbed. But a gauge boson is merely a force carrier, is not a source. Maybe the primary source was ex-machine, coming before the Big Bang. Is so, the natural system ex-machine that is being reproduced here is the source of physical forces and consciousness (one coming from the other).

·  in reply to werriboy55 (Show the comment)

werriboy55 27 seconds ago

ex-machine? Do you ex machina from the machine? That’s a literary device to circumvent a sticky plot situation.

1) Electric synapses are capable of passing electric current. Is electric current the way they remember light waves?

How do chemical synapses fit into this?

2) The universe composed of hardware and software logically infers someone built the hardware and wrote the software ie a creator. You would have to prove a creator before that model is valid.

·  in reply to TheMatrixDNA (Show the comment)

TheMatrixDNA 1 second ago

I mean, ex-machine because it seems is coming from something existent before the Big Bang. These electric current must produces a magnetic field, something like a electric-magnetic spectrum, which is light.I think that thoughts are composed by this light waves. About the last: yours body is composed by flash and “mind”. Yours parents didn’t built yours body neither wrote software. Why this Universe is not like a genetic reproduction of something natural ex-universe?

·  in reply to werriboy55 (Show the comment)

werriboy55 2 minutes ago

Why this Universe is not like a genetic reproduction of something natural ex-universe?

Umm because we don’t see the universe replicating? And what does ex-universe mean? “From the universe?

·  in reply to TheMatrixDNA (Show the comment)

TheMatrixDNA 1 second ago

We don’t see the Universe replicating because it is not a reproduction of Universe. The Universe is the womb, the egg, or galaxies are merely the fossil of our ancestors that went away of the evolutionary tree. We, and lots of others conscious lifeforms spreaded in this Universe, are like genes building a conscious embryo.Everything like the embryogenesis of a human being.There are no facts denying this strong Matrix/DNA’s hypothesis

·  in reply to werriboy55 (Show the comment)

werriboy55 5 minutes ago

‘Maybe the primary source was ex-machine, coming before the Big Bang” – Prove it.

“Is so, the natural system ex-machine that is being reproduced here is the source of physical forces and consciousness (one coming from the other).” Your post.

‘Again I can’t understand how evolved physical forces could becomes conscious.” Another of your posts. So physical forces can create this nebulous consciousness but cannot become it. A contradiction?

·  in reply to TheMatrixDNA (Show the comment)

TheMatrixDNA 1 second ago

I think is not necessary to prove that the Big Bang had a “source”.Now we makes theories about what could be this “source”. The smallest atom? Or a natural system… and conscious? If so, this system did not applied magics, we see natural systems being reproduced here at the same time they are ex-machine in relation to mother’s womb. Yours parents made you by physical forces which were transferred to you. But yours “consciousness: is not their consciousness.I know this is a most difficult issue.

·  in reply to werriboy55 (Show the comment)

werriboy55 21 minutes ago

And your evidence that this something called consciousness existed before the big bang is what?

A magnetic field is nothing like the electric-magnetic spectrum or light.

“yours body is composed by flash and “mind” What is flash and what is mind?

·  in reply to TheMatrixDNA (Show the comment)

TheMatrixDNA 1 second ago

Nobody can’t prove anything before the Big Bang, but we can elaborate a good theory about the whole Natural Universal History, about what happened here after the Big Bang. Academic Science are trying to do it from Physics/Math perspective, Matrix/DNA is trying to use this perspective but adding Biology and Consciousness for getting a Theory of Everything…inside the Universe.It happens that this History suggests the shape and constitution of what’s was before. Electrons are carrier of photons

·  in reply to werriboy55 (Show the comment)

TheMatrixDNA 1 second ago

Electrons are carriers of photons. The models of Matrix/DNA are suggesting that the aspect “software” of matter is composed by photons (the process by which LUCA created biological systems). Finally the models suggests a process by which the existent ex-machine system could be the source of this software/photons if the photons works like genes. Mind will be composed by light which is the reproduction of consciousness of that ex-machine system.

·  in reply to TheMatrixDNA (Show the comment)

werriboy55 24 minutes ago

We, and lots of others conscious lifeforms spreaded in this Universe, are like genes building a conscious embryo.Everything like the embryogenesis of a human being.

And what are we gestating and when is it due to be born?

·  in reply to TheMatrixDNA (Show the comment)

TheMatrixDNA 1 second ago

I don’t know, nobody knows which was the source of the Big Bang. I think that genes building a fetus does not know they are building the fetus and much less the next shape of embryo. When? Our graphic called “From the Big Bang to the Big Birth” suggests that it will happen proportionally to the difference of time between the formation of embryo conscious state and its birth ( maybe two months?) How much is 2 months in cosmological time? I will do the maths…

·  in reply to werriboy55 (Show the comment)

werriboy55 26 minutes ago

And there are no facts proving it. just a speculation of “something” that may have existed before the big bang and a confused approach to what light is. If you think that is a strong hypothesis then you have a lot to learn.

·  in reply to TheMatrixDNA (Show the comment)
TheMatrixDNA

TheMatrixDNA 1 second ago

It could be just speculation but there are two principal facts: 1) all known scientific facts (from particles to human beings to galaxies) were connected by a unique line of logics ( a process of genetic reproduction);2) the theory never jumped to a conclusion without the prior state of the world being supported by a known natural parameter. This method hold yours mind at solid ground. For instance, the Hawking theory of black holes is not supported by a known natural parameter, it is a ghost.

·  in reply to werriboy55 (Show the comment)

TheMatrixDNA 1 second ago

If you see the picture called “The electric-magnetic spectrum by “Matrix/DNA” and considerate the hypothesis that at any period of vibrations can be formed photons with the same vibration s maximum expression but containing the whole copy of the whole wave…you see there how a process of life’s cycle performed by light waves van be transferred to mass and creating “life”.

werriboy55 9 minutes ago

So it took 2 moths from the initial big bang event for consciousness to appear in the universe. If your force existed prior to the bid bang why the delay? Logically if it was already there then it should kick in straight away. The whole thing is still an opinion.

·  in reply to TheMatrixDNA (Show the comment)
TheMatrixDNA

TheMatrixDNA 1 second ago

Hy, good you are back. I am still astonished by the fact individuals neurons are stupid but their union is conscious. If self-consciousness existed prior the origins of yours body ( in yours ancestors), why did you get it only seven months after yours origins? Why existed a womb during 9 months before your birth? Why existed Earth 1,5 billion years before life’s origins? Why the Universe existed 13, 7 billions before consciousness birth. Same questions&same answers.

werriboy55 13 minutes ago

No you can jerrymander together some opinions and call them a theory, but you do NOT have hypothesis (scientific) usage yet.

You claim a state of force existed, then say nothing can be proved about that state so you cannot demonstrate you original proposition. You have an opinion only..

·  in reply to TheMatrixDNA

TheMatrixDNA 1 second ago

I took a single tornado, like these that appears suddenly at yours yard. They can be shared into two groups: spin right and left.I analysed it theoretically and found each one has seven brutes natural forces. They are the source of natural forces that pops up from a membrane of nothing separating our universe from the creator ex-machine system. Variation of expressions of spins and forces creates fuzzy logics, each vortex has its own identity. This is bit of information=genes. Theory…ok.

·  in reply to werriboy55 (Show the comment)
XXXXXX

Outra discussão:

Logic is based on what you know.

Since you know next to nothing your logic is weak or as pseudo Yoda might say, the stupid is strong with this one.

·  in reply to werriboy55 (Show the comment)
TheMatrixDNA

TheMatrixDNA 1 second ago

That’s a fatally counter-argument against creationism. Human understanding of natural logic is obtained by the observed slice of natural history’s time during our lifetime. We see a chain of causes and effects, we extracts our logics from this chain. Since that there is only one chain coming since the Big Bang, any slice of time must be equal to the whole time. In other words, the logics saw here is the logics of the whole. Have you seen something supernatural acting during yours lifetime?

·  in reply to Edmond Goo (Show the comment)
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GoodScienceForYou 14 minutes ago

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All of science as you know it today came from Creationists. This is because modern science and atheism comes from mental retardation from fetal mutations caused by STD’s, Radiation, Toxic Chemicals, and Genitally Altered foods. Why don’t you face reality and realize that atheism is a disease caused by mutations in the brain cell development.

“Dumb and Dumber: Study Says Humans Are Slowly Losing Their Smarts

Stanford geneticist,Dr Gerald Crabtree says humans evolving into dumber species”

·  in reply to TheMatrixDNA (Show the comment)

TheMatrixDNA 1 second ago

I don’t think so. The basics of sciences were initiated by Greek philosophers and they were not creationists.But the philosophers were no “experimentalists” and the Jewish/Christian invasion of Occident nations stopped science during 1.500 years. Only with Enlightenment, a movement against mysticism, Science came back and with experimentalism. I am wrong? The presence of Curiosity at Mars is not evidence that humans are losing their smarts.

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XXXX

GoodScienceForYou 25 minutes ago

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You cannot be logical if you are emotionally controlled by fear of stepping outside of the faith based bullshit of Evodelusionism.

·  in reply to TheMatrixDNA

TheMatrixDNA 1 second ago

But my logic is stepping outside the Modern Synthesis, the interpretation of the world based upon a movement of evolution described by VSI (Variation, Selection,Inheritance). Really my observed slice of time of this natural chain of cause and effects did not showed a species changing into another shape. But I have observed shapes transforming into new shapes at any process of embryogenesis. It is possible.So, Matrix/DNA. I have never saw supernatural forces acting here. It must be not possible

·  in reply to GoodScienceForYou (Show the comment)

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